Which pipe? Here? Where did the door go?

This looks like rough-sawn lumber. It would not be 'dimensional', ie 1.5" wide. But the plates the plumber used were probably 1.5".

Drywall (not used, should be concrete board or similar) and tile won't be 2" thick.

We don't know which pipe was hit; having the contractor and plumber come out tomorrow to remove the tile to check (the image above is just to show the general area where the piping was completed and the plates) . I don't understand the second comment re: lumber not being dimensional - do you mind reiterating?

You have older lumber, from back when a 2x4 measure almost or exactly 2x4. Now a days they measue 1 1/2" x 3 1/2" approximately. The protection plate used are froo current 2x4's hence they did not cover the pipe completely. As the GC you inherit certain risks and responsabilities that going along with saving the dollars (by not hiring a GC). Ultimately it's on you, but you can attempt to negotiate a repair on their dime just expect major push back.

Unfortunately, as the GC, you are responsible. A GC coordinates the subs and makes sure the conditions are prepped appropriately for them before they begin.

Did you contact your insurance company before beginning the project to be sure that you had the appropriate insurance to act as a GC? Did you pull permits and get this inspected?

So I echo the point that others made about this being something that the GC would be responsible for -and the GC would try to get some $ back from subs. A normal GC would have a lot of the same subs working for him on future jobs - so they have an incentive to take some responsibility. You don't have that working in your favor.

So here's my take on things: The plumber installed the lines right at the surface of the stud and then sorta-kinda covered them. This wasn't great (particularly if the plans show a glass wall there). A good GC would have caught that.

The 2 inch screws aren't excessive - if that's what you are getting at. By the time you subtract tile (0.25) and backer(0.5) + the mount itself (0.25) you are talking about 1" - 1.25" penetration into the stud - which is minimum for supporting the glass. Pipes less than 1.5" from the surface need to be protected.

A good enclosure installer would use a stud/metal finder to locate the studs and avoid pipes and wires. Those pipes and plates should have lit up any detector.

I think you need for both subs to come to the table - but don't expect to get fully compensated. The GC screwed up as well by not spotting this problem.

Isn't this covered by liability insurance that every GC and subcontractor must have?

What are you concerned about - the remedial work needed to fix the issue or compensation done to your neighbor's apartment.

I live in a high-rise condo and there was somewhat of the same situation. A bathroom was being remodeled and the plumber installing the fixtures in the shower removed a valve and broke a pipe. There was a tremendous amount of damage since this was a ninth floor unit and almost all the apartments in the same stack below suffered significant damage such that the owners had to move out of their units for several months while their apartments were fixed.

The impacted homeowners put in claims to their insurance companies and then the insurance companies dealt with liability. My friend lives in one of the units and so through him I know that the building was sued for having old pipes; the plumber was sued and the homeowner was sued. In the end the plumber's insurance company was the one that actually was on the hook because he had done the work and in some kind of way caused the pipe to burst.

First thing you should do is contact your insurance company if there is significant damage to your neighbor because of the water intrusion. If there isn't you would probably not want to make a claim since it would appear on your record and impact future premium rates.

Then as others have posted, it comes down to negotiation and who has clout. It would appear that some degree of responsibility is shared by all - the plumber knew that pipes running against studs need to be shielded so he should have put in larger enough plates to full protect since he knew the purpose of the plates and could see that the size of the plates wasn't sufficient.

The installer couldn't see the studs and would have assumed the pipes were sufficiently protected - perhaps someone can offer assistance regarding whether a prudent glass installer should have made this assumption without further investigation.

And since you are acting as the GC in effect, you would also have some degree of responsibility. One of the reasons a GC earns their money is because they (and their insurance) take full responsibility for this kind of issue. It wouldn't matter who or what caused the damage - the GC would have the subs remedy it - whether he paid for it or he and the subs each ate a certain portion would be irrelevant to the homeowner.

I wish every GC would understand that :)

Kristin,

The plumber didn't effectively protect the pipes - as was clearly shown in the photo. Protection is required by code and it wasn't properly done.

The glass installer didn't use a stud/pipe/wire finder. When you are in the business of running 2" screws into bathroom walls to hold up glass panels around a shower you had better hit a stud - and you better not hit a pipe or wire. If you aren't using a stud/pipe/wire finder you are gambling.

If this had been just "replace glass panels around shower" the glass installer would be absolutely responsible.

Again: The GC (homeowner) has a lot of responsibility in this case because the plumbing issue wasn't flagged before the walls were closed up and the location of the pipes wasn't communicated to the enclosure installer.

Even so, those pipes could have just as easily been hit by the tile installer when they were putting up the backing, or the person installing finish items like towel and grab bars, or the homeowner when hanging a mirror or artwork. Being that close to the surface is really bad... and not having proper plates is bad also. This is absolutely a known issue and pipes are supposed to have 1.5" of wood coverage or metal plates by code. They should have been installed in the center of the stud with plates that covered the entire stud.

I am just a homeowner although reasonably handy. It is interesting to realize all the potential issues involved here for future reference. However, I am confused about the layout here. Could someone explain where shower glass would go in the picture above. It looks like a solid wall not needing a shower door or glass of any kind.

Jake, it may be the plumber's fault for not installing the plumbing to code, but whose fault is it for putting a wall and tile over plumbing that is not to code? Had this remodel been completed legally and with licensed professionals, an inspection would have caught the issues. I'm sorry, but I think it's entirely inappropriate for somebody to undergo a renovation in a multi-unit building without getting the proper permits. It's one thing to put your life and property at risk to save a little bit of money, but it's another to force other people to deal with the consequences of your actions.

Kristin,

Each trade is responsible for their work. Full stop. A GC doesn't know all of the code as it pertains to each trade. And although a good GC can spot many problems and avoid them before they become big issues that threaten getting the job done right, on time and on budget -- the trades are still responsible for their own work. If I'm a GC and don't spot that an electrician pulled the wrong size wire, for example, although I'm overall responsible for the job, the electrician is absolutely responsible for his own work being right. It doesn't come back to me because I didn't spot his error before the wall was closed up.

Do we know there were no permits or that this was not completely legal? In my neck of the woods a homeowner can hire trades and the trades pull their own permits. As a homeowner, If I hire an electrician to put in a new panel, they will pull their own permit. If I hire a roofer to replace the roof, likewise they will pull their own permit.

So let's back up just a bit: The homeowner in this case is not a GC. They are homeowners. They are hiring trades people to do work. I get it that they are functioning in the GC role - but they are not a GC. Also I get it that many home owners function in this role when they are not qualified to do a complex project -- and should hire a GC.

In my view, tradespeople need to watch out for homeowners doing complex projects without a GC. The tradespeople are doing "retail" work (meaning a lot more hand holding, liability and coordination) without the retail compensation. When something goes bad, (which is more likely with inexperienced homeowner GC) it's going to land on the subs, not the homeowner. I've seen it happen more than once.

If the homeowner hired licensed, insured trades and never claimed to be a GC, it's on the trades to be sure that a proper permit is pulled and inspections done.

If the homeowner is claiming to be in the GC role, the trades need to get it in writing that they have insurance and and are operating in that role as well as make sure they are reasonably competent. Otherwise what happens is that homeowner acts like the GC right up until something goes wrong -- then when it lands in court, they revert to unsophisticated homeowner that's being taken advantage of.

I'm having shower doors installed now I'm afraid what should I look out

Make sure your shower door installer isn't using 2" screws.